Arvind Kejriwal was an atheist. He turned a believer some time back. You can almost understand why - how could a fringe movement for an anti-corruption law turn into such a huge movement unless god was on his side? After Delhi, he's drawing up plans for the 2014 Lok Sabha election. And he's brimming with confidence. TOI's Neha Lalchandani met him on Wednesday at his residence for an exclusive interview. Excerpts from a free-wheeling conversation on a host of issues.
Yours was so far a movement, but now it's a political party. What does this transformation mean to you?
When we were in the movement, we were pleading with the government over and over again to legislate the Lokpal Bill, but it didn't respond. Gradually we realized that the character of the present system is such that petitions wouldn't work. If they are the problem, they can't take action against themselves - they're steeped in corruption and would never pass the Lokpal Bill. Therefore, we have now entered politics. Annaji used to say that politics is keechar (muck). We have now entered the keechar to clean it up ourselves. We know we don't have a magic wand which we will wave and correct everything. Nor do we have the knowledge to solve all the problems. But we do know that if all of Delhi's 1.5 crore people get together and want to do something, there is nothing that can't be done. Collectively we can, together we can. Five-six ministers or a handful of bureaucrats can't solve the problems of Delhi. Secondly, there is the question of niyat (intent).
Congress and
BJP don't have it, but our intentions are good and we will find solutions to problems.
It's not possible that everyone who entered politics came with the wrong intention. Is there something about politics and power that corrupts?
That's a fair point. First, all those who have entered the system entered as individuals. In Congress, for instance, there might be one or two good ministers. But Congress as a party, is a corrupt party. In contrast,
AAP is a party of upright people and the entire team is coming in with a good intent. But if we think that we can provide good governance in the present system, that's not possible. The system will soon overpower us and we will get sucked into it. So, we will have to change the system completely and for that our solution is swaraj. We will have to implement a system that no longer depends on individuals but works by itself. Why do we have to approach MLAs for ration cards, cleaning waste or improving roads? These things should happen on their own. When there is decentralization, when governance is in the hands of the people, at least colony-related issues like water, power, parks, medicines and schools will get solved.
Initially, you said you didn't want to take the support of Congress. But now you have. What changed?
We don't have an alliance with Congress in Delhi. They have offered support and we are ready to take it, but it's not an alliance. When Congress suddenly claimed it would give us outside support, they also started criticizing us for not taking on responsibility, while claiming our promises can't be fulfilled. Many of our supporters started questioning us. Then we asked for 10 days' time and decided to go back to the people. We had no idea that there would be such overwhelming opinion for us to form the government. I personally did not want a tie-up and would have liked a re-election. But we respected what the people said. Our supporters feel that if Congress takes back support now, they will be the villains.
It now appears that Congress is quite uncomfortable with the fact that you're forming the government. Is it because you called their bluff?
Yes, we called their bluff. They have given their support and we will take it at face value and implement our manifesto for which people have voted for us.
Including probes into issues of corruption that might involve the previous government?
Yes, we will implement our manifesto.
Has Rahul Gandhi called you up? Or any other senior Congress leader?
There has been no communication. I had written one letter to the Congress president and they responded to it. There has been no further communication or phone calls.
How does your swaraj actually work?
The first step is legislation. The law has to be drafted. We have invited S C Behar, former chief secretary of Madhya Pradesh, to Delhi to act as an advisor and help us in drafting this law. He is an expert on decentralization and tried to implement something in MP but the government in power then did not allow him to do so. He is coming to Delhi this evening and will stay here for the next few months. Drafting the law is probably the easy thing. Getting the law passed in the Assembly will be our biggest challenge.
Once that's done, the next step is implementation. Delhi has 272 wards. Each will be divided into an average of 10 parts. That gives us roughly 2,720 mohallas. Demarcating the mohallas on the map will be a huge exercise. Assets like roads, lanes, dispensaries, primary schools, etc., will have to be transferred to each mohalla. Each mohalla will have a small secretariat with one or two employees after which there will be local elections to chose a representative. His only job will be to convene monthly meetings and to get decisions implemented through the local Mohalla sabha secretariat. This entire exercise should take us six to eight months.
But you may not get 6-8 months...
I can't say how long this government will last because it will be there on their (Congress) support but whenever it falls and there will be re-election, I see AAP winning that with an overwhelming majority.
Your good intentions apart (which is your claim), how is AAP different from the personality-driven Congress or an ideology-driven BJP?
I really don't know how ideology driven BJP is because both BJP and Congress have the same ideology: corruption. In that sense, AAP stands out from both these parties. We have already been transparent about our funding, we have fought elections in a very tight budget.
Your movement is now mass based. Mass movements draw all kinds of people. How can you say that everyone in AAP is a person with the right intention?
You had earlier asked me about our movement now becoming a political party. Frankly, the party itself is a movement. We have won this election because of our volunteers. There are so many people who have left their homes and jobs to work for us. It's not a political party in the conventional sense. If people with the right intent enter the system and change it, only then can such a movement have permanence. There are systems that work around the world and we need to bring in a good system into the party and into governance. The system itself will then filter out the wrong kind of people. We screened our candidates thrice before confirming their nomination but there should also be systems in place to weed out the wrong kind of people. Office bearers are also checked. But everyone is welcome to be a party worker. We have no checks for them.
You have said that your promise to provide 700 litres of free water will be fulfilled within 24 hours of your assuming office. How?
We did not promise to make water available to everyone, we promised to make 700 litres of water free to those who have water connection. For this only an executive order is needed. The real problem is distribution. Each colony has different kinds of water issues that will have to be looked into. For instance, Ambedkar Nagar, Sangam Vihar, Mehrauli and Devli can get water from the Sonia Vihar treatment plant. A pipeline passes close to these areas and from what I know, a pipe network has been provided in these colonies. It's only a matter of connecting them with the main pipeline and maybe building an underground reservoir. The reason why this work has not been done is because a huge tanker mafia is operating in these areas, and both Congress and BJP are involved in it. It is a business of hundreds of crores.
And how will you cut power tariff by 50%?
We do not have the exact calculations for this. There is, however, evidence of a lot of wrong doing in the books of power distribution companies. In 2002, when privatization took place, it was said that there were losses of 60% in power distribution in Delhi. And that after privatization, these losses would come down, revenue would go up and accordingly power tariff in Delhi would fall. Today, distribution losses have come down to 15%. This 45% reduction in unmetered, unpaid electricity translates into thousands of crores. Where has this money gone? Far from tariff coming down, it has gone up threefold since then. This needs to be audited. Secondly, in 2010, discoms declared losses of Rs 630 crore but when their accounts were checked, it was found that they had instead made a profit of Rs 3,577 crore. Thirdly, both discoms, BSES and NDPL, have created sister concerns from whom they purchase equipment. In the 2010 order, they have shown a bill of Rs 1,200 crore on purchase of equipment that actually cost Rs 800 crore. These sister concerns are also a front to create artificial losses. For instance, one discom purchases power at Rs 6 per unit and supplies it to one such concern for Rs 2.70. Why are they buying this surplus power and transferring the losses to the people of Delhi? Last year, DERC had checked 15,000 connections. Out of these, 10% were shown to have zero billing in the discom's account. When consumers were questioned, they claimed to have paid bills. So if they have paid, but the discoms are showing zero billing, where did the money go? All this raises serious questions about their accounts which need to be audited.
But how will you audit these companies? CAG tried but the high court did not give permission as they are private companies.
An audit is possible as per the CAG Act. We are already working on how this audit can be done. I can't tell you how, but this audit is possible and will be done.
It's said that before the Delhi assembly introduces a bill in the assembly, it has to be referred to the Centre for its nod. If that's so, how will you pass the Lokpal Bill or create mohalla sabhas?
The Constitution says that Delhi Assembly can legislate on state subjects with certain exceptions. If the state has to legislate on a subject that is repugnant to an existing Central law, then that will need the President's assent. However, in August 2002, the transaction of business rules was changed in Delhi by an executive order, which now says that the Delhi government has to first get a new law approved by the Centre before it can be introduced in the Assembly. This smacks of colonial times when
London had to clear laws. Now, how can the transaction of business rules supersede the Constitution of India? It can't. The kind of swaraj model we have in mind will certainly need the Centre's nod but we will seek that only after passing the law in Delhi Assembly. Under swaraj, we are practically taking away all power from the state and handing it over the people.
And the Centre will approve your new law?
Let's see. If it doesn't give approval then the chief minister of Delhi and its people will sit on dharna outside the home ministry!
How seriously are you about the 2014 Lok Sabha elections?
There is very strong buzz about AAP across the country. Hordes of people are coming for our meetings. There may be some rural areas, where media outreach is absent or restricted, where we might face a problem. We have decided that we will field candidates where ever we find worthy people. Therefore, it's not possible to say whether we will contest 20 seats, 200 or 400. The hunt for good people has started.
But you've already announced that you will contest all 26 seats in Gujarat...
No, we haven't decided so far. Some local AAP enthusiasts might have said that, but as a party we haven't decided.
In Delhi you had a team which was able to identify good candidates. How will you replicate the exercise when you extend to areas where you don't even have a support base?
The party has a strong network across the country that will find out about prospective candidates.
Will you tie up with like minded organizations like the Lok Satta party in Andhra Pradesh?
We are already in touch with many of them.
Now that you are eyeing a national election, you must have policies other than corruption. What's your foreign policy or your economic policy? Your referendum model certainly won't work here... We are working on our policies. On foreign policy, we would of course like to have friendly relations with all our neighbours, and be on equal terms with all countries. You are right...referendums can't be used to decide subjects like currency, foreign policy, banking etc. And mohalla sabhas will have to work within existing systems of law. They can't, like khap panchayats, issue illegal orders. Then the law will kick in.
Surveys say that many people who voted for AAP in Delhi would vote for
Narendra Modi in the Lok Sabha election. Now that your party has aspirations for the Centre, what message will you put out?
(smiles) We have plans. Let's wait and watch. There are five months still left for elections. And five months is a very long time in politics.
In the next five months you are likely to get tied down in Delhi. How will you campaign across the country in the coming polls?
What we achieve in Delhi will affect people in every village in the country. When Delhi holds its assembly session in Ramlila Maidan, it will fire the imagination of the whole country. If Delhi does away with the lal batti culture, people in other parts of the country will ask their ministers to follow our lead. When I refuse to stay in a bungalow and live in a flat, it will be expected out of other leaders too that they live like the aam aadmi. It's by our performance that we will campaign in the Lok Sabha election.
You were once an atheist. Now there's Ganapathy in your room as well as a picture of Shirdi Sai Baba. What made you a believer once again?
Yes, I was once an atheist. But look at our movement in the last three years. Is it possible to go from where we were to where we have reached today without divine support?
With people's support...
Of course, with people's support. But that wouldn't have come unless there is also a divine role.
